We need to consider the slowtwitch editor’s staff’s self interests too. They are incentivized to defend or at least not criticize too harshly what bike companies are doing. As if they criticize too harshly there will likely be reduced access to information/interviews or products to review.
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Also blowing up at Reddit Velo - 204 Comments in 16 hours!
“Hookless rims are a scam” - Josh Poertner, CEO of Silca and former technical director of Zipp : r/Velo
Hookless have yet to be more economical. Still waiting for “cheaper” wheels.
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Can someone point me to any data that shows all these blowoffs and disasters that are occurring with Hookless?
This seems like 10 years ago when people saying their carbon frames were breaking in indoor trainers…and when tubeless wasn’t safe for road…and when disc brakes were cutting everyone up and causing crashes.
But none of that really materialized. If this was really a huge issue, wouldn’t SRAM and ENVE be doing recalls?
With as vocal as the cycling community is - I have to believe that we would be seeing real world scenarios where people were having catastrophic failures. Even just on this forum.
This is not meant as a troll or taunting comment. I’m legitimately asking as someone who just got a 404 setup from SRAM that came with a new bike.
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this! I have very limited experience with hookless, but other than being mindful of the pressure limitation, had no issue.
Zipp claims to have passed the saving onto the consumers. When asked all the brands claim that while there is “Savings” it’s very very little.
Maybe a high-level “timeline” to set things in context…
- Major wheel manufactures moved to hookless rims on tier top-tier road bike products
- Max pressure for hookless is 70 to 72 PSI, depending on the wheel maker & tire combination
- Pro teams and 3rd parties tested and determined their best-performing tires are 28mm and higher than 72 PSI - a little higher for road stages and a lot higher for TT stages
- ETRTO standards set minimum hookless tire sizes based on internal wheel width that exceed desired 28mm tires
- UCI mandates that pro teams must follow ETRTO standards, which means they must run tires wider than 28mm
- Tire companies introduce 29mm tires as a compromise
- ENVE develops the micro-hooked wheels for UAE
The summary is that hookless wheel & tire systems cannot satisfy the desired fastest configurations for pro teams - not for TT and not for regular stages. We do not know if performance-conscious everyman riders can get their fastest combinations with hookless, but my hunch is no. (At least nobody here that tests this stuff said that an 180 lb. rider with 275 FTP can get their fastest setup on a 30mm tire at 70 PSI.)
Even if hookless road wheels would be perfect for recreational riders who are willing to compromise performance for hookless cost savings, it seems unlikely that wheel manufacturers would have two road bike product lines: hookless for recreational riders and hooked for competitive riders. Therefore, it seems like we might shift back toward hooked rims of some type for high-performance applications, and hookless road bike rims might go away or become a niche product for non-competitive road bike applications.
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I’m glad i’m not Josh’s inbox, that must have been exploded with emails from his friends at Zipp, Enve, Hunt and Cadex 
Jeroen
Well at least in the case of ENVE, they probably don’t even know what to think of the hooked vs. hookless debate any more. Or do we now have to add a third category? Hooked vs. itty bitty hooks vs. hookless?
It is interesting that people seem to have memory holed that brief period of time when Enve was having problems with their bead hooks cutting the sidewalls of some of the most popular tubeless tires.
I’d argue that this was one of the largest factors in their moving towards tubeless road rims, and the well-defined benefit of this move was that it immediately solved the problem of sudden tire sidewall failure due to cuts from the bead hook.
This wasn’t - and isn’t - a problem that was limited to Enve, btw. I’ve seen instances of it with wheels from other manufacturers, and I have seen wheels with bead hooks that were sharp enough to (literally) cut my finger on, that I can’t believe won’t cause problems at some point down the line.
None of this is to say that the disadvantages of hookless rims aren’t - at this point - very clear, and that there is very compelling evidence that their utility for triathlon/road racing/time trialing is likely very much limited at this point in time.
When manufacturers talk about the cost savings of hookless rims, a large part of that cost savings is the fact that there is no need to process bead hooks post-mold to remove sharp edges and imperfections. There’s another way to avoid these costs; simply skip that step. And that’s what many manufacturers do. Because they’re “good enough” in exactly the same way that hookless rims are “good enough”.
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So the solution from Enve for a sharp bead hook was to create a wheel with even more possible issues? Maybe i shouldn’t call it issues, maybe limitations is better word.
Lets assume hookless was never invented. What would we as riders have missed out on?
I sincerely can’t think of anything.
In the literally hundreds of wheels that passed through my hands i never had a hooked wheel that made cuts in the sidewall of tires.
Jeroen
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Can we not say the same about you?
Aren’t you having your own self interest as well?
Having Zipp and Cadex as paying partners/advertisers on the website?
I’m not saying your are lying but it is very difficult to criticize your advertisers in what they are putting on the market. And i’m not trying to be a dick……with the risk of getting banned again
Assume, as i just responded to Fredly as well, that hookless was never invented, what would have missed out on as riders? With all due respect. I really can’t think of anything.
Jeroen
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About twenty different threads, 200 insults and 10,000 views 
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Reply to thread in general. I don’t want to single anyone out but my personal position is this.
I think hookless is dumb. I’ve tried it, and had issues and went back to technology i trusted. Josh said what many of us have been thinking to be true, and he is arguably the most knowledgeable and expert person in this subject you could possibly want. His discussion on the podcast was supported by very technical data/examples/knowledge. far more depth and experience than any hookless defender I’ve seen.
Those of you who are defending hookless need to step your game up. The whole “it works for certain cases/riding situations” was absolutely eviscerated by Josh in terms of the margins of the risk, and the fact that all the benefits are unsupported by any real data.
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Dick…
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The risks are substantiated in data either though (maybe performance?)
Just playing devils advocate here…
Are you saying wheel manufactures, who’s whole premise is built on “Our wheels are the fastest” are knowingly creating an environment that their wheels are slower than other hooked wheelsets due to PSI limitations?
That seems like a really fast way to go out of business. If all a competitor has to do is put on a hook and allow higher PSI to outperform the top wheel brands. Then why don’t they all go back to hooked? Are the cost savings that much they would risk that?
Josh said they have had tires blow off the rim at 4 psi above the sidewall limit. That’s data to me.
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This is why there is such a crazy push by industry types for them. ZIPP have made a huge mistake, no one can justify why hookless are better and before long they will no doubt go back to hooked.
It’s really weird. Normally a product can have a clear selling point but hookless is like something Trump would sell. Just a myriad of non sensical rubbish.
Faster no
Safer no
Cheaper no
Lighter no
Stronger… Maybe?
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201 insults
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