And Mark has a “conflict of interest” and can’t comment on the Bahrain course measuring.
Why do the rules need to ‘evolve’…? How boring will racing be with 20m-imagine 6 guys with 20m separation, plus another 10m odd taking into account the bike lengths. So a total 130m distance for the person in 6th to cover to make a pass…
Who in their right mind is going to burn all of those matches! Nope, 20m will just mean a massive congo pace line…how thrilling…
The rules don’t need to change, they just need to swim faster. Cant make the front or second pack…well gee thats too bad. Heres a towel and participation medal for you.
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Well if ironman does not want to change force it to change and if all the top guys only do the min racing at ironman. IE Kona qualification and Kona they will listen ( IE they responded with the pro series when they where forced and only then ) if the big guys ignore their races for a year together that’s the best chance they will move ,
So your two examples and Lionel , kat, , knibb Lucy , solveig and blu and Casper they move the needle.
and what do you do you talk ironman up most of the time and talk t 100 down and then are surprised the old white man does not see the need to change … ( And I am not saying t100 is perfect far from it but they have 20 m rule and no contracts next year )
Because ironman sees it gets away with it … It won’t change .
I hear all your points but still the only message the old white man gets is if the big athletes move away ( that got the pro series started and increased the 70. World price money IE only the t 100 forced changes on ironman ) . You complain and your athletes support ironman and your friend athletes play into the cards of ironman.
Ironman will only move when the top athletes walk away.
And again to make this real world when the athletes did not go to lathi 2023 ironman increased the price money that is the only language ironman listens too . And it was the same 1985 I think it was when the pros went almost all to race in nice , the next year ironman had price money in Kona .
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If it really was as high as 90%… couldn’t they just force the issue? Get together and agree to ride at a 20m gap regardless of what the rules say? That would force a decision out of Ironman pretty quickly.
Personally, I’m a little apathetic. I don’t necessarily believe that the sport needs more advantage given to strong bikers, I think it’s probably already skewed in their favour a little.
I agree with all your points, but all that @pk noted is that athletes refuse to vote with their feet so to speak. It’s like Ironman is a governing body or some sort of a public good that needs to be managed for the benefit of the athletes and not for its own profit.
I appreciate your verbal pressure campaign and your rant on the podcast was first class. It’s just that we also need to view this through the lens of athletes supporting the cause with words but not with action (which they have reasons to refrain from, to be sure). When a private, for-profit company doesn’t deliver what the stakeholders want, and yet the stakeholders stay, there’s no reason to be overly optimistic about the outcome.
Are you saying the t100 is boring because they have a 20m draft?
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I don’t read it that way, just that it doesn’t help the excitement having them more scattered.
I don’t agree, as a smaller draft doesn’t do much to it either so…
The T100 bike is relatively boring because of the 20 meter AND because there isn’t a diverse group of athletes who create an exciting bike/race dynamic. They are all effectively the same athlete profile, great swimmers and solid bikers so once they get out of the water the better bikers heads to the front and rest basically paceline at 20 meters.
If it were a 12 meter zone do you think HW still runs away from everyone with relative ease? Or does someone like Jelle ride with a pack and keep the gap manageable enough they have a chance to close on him. Personally I think the 12 meters is why HW didnt win in Taupo but the 20 is why he is dominating T100 this year.
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In a race with the draft zone set at 12m, Race Ranger goes amber at 17m. If they agreed to stay out of amber (and I appreciate this is in a parallel universe) the problem would then be (not) slotting in.
Currently a rider overtaking can ‘slot in’ if the light ahead is amber or unlit. If it’s blue they risk being penalised, so prudence means they carry on and overtake the next rider too.
Bear in mind the figures here: 12m directly behind at 45kmph saves a rider circa 12%; at 20m it’s <5% (of power).
I believe when you have more than 20 athletes and a 20m draft it won’t be boring. The 12 or 20m draft has nothing to do with Hayden’s dominance or his loss in Taupō. He was one more gel for him or one less gel for Jelle from winning.
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It’s certainly possible. I think the 20 athletes is the main culprit especially 20 from the same mold. Were the opens 12 or 20, bc those were far more interesting races from start to finish. It would be interesting to see some variety tested. Maybe IM would do some testing in the non-Pro Series races to test out various draft distances and their impact on the race and race dynamics. They could get some interesting insights in those races with RR to see if there are more passes and shifts in dynamics without interfering with the Pro Series.
100%, 20m with 20 athletes isn’t super interesting because you lose density in the field pretty quickly. 20m when 30 guys come out of the water in one pack at Kona and hit the Queen K together, that’s a lot different especially since most everyone there is strong enough to sit in that group until Hawi.
The longer distances also help stronger cyclists because it takes more power to overtake even one but especially a train of athletes at 20m. It does create movement too because at those bigger distances, it’s much easier to have gaps open and not be able to close, so if you’re in line you have to be hyper vigilant and jump if you see a larger gap opening. So the weaker cyclists who can’t surge will end up filtered and dangling off the back, and more likely to be dropped by the stronger athletes. Even in T100 we still see rotations and overtaking in the races, like in the men’s races when you have Rico, Hayden, MVR, Mika up there, and in the women’s races with LCB, Learmonth, Knibb taking pulls- just you should see more of that with the density of strong cyclists in pro series races.
No. I’m saying we need to make long course racing more dynamic, not less so, and spreading athletes further apart will only serve the purpose of making the product even less desirable from a broadcast perspective.
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We have to come back to what we want as a sport, not just athletes but also viewers/fans as well.
The main argument for the 20m draft rule is that it substantially reduces the draft effect, such that its a more ‘fair’ race. But what it also does is remove the strategic/tactical decision-making with respect to your competitors. If the point of all this is to have the strongest athlete win every time, we might as well just set them off in 1 min intervals like a proper cycling TT, and let the clock dictate.
No - as fans we actually want the polemics of why a certain athlete can’t win because they missed the pack, or that a certain packrat sits in and races to suit their run strength. It forces creativity from the others, and it gives the sport some tension that makes it more interesting. Without a proper and tactical decision to me made in this sport (sit in group or ride past), we’re just measuring who can exercise the best.
I like having a sport where we wonder if Kat Matthews hadn’t sat in so as not to give Laura Phillip a benefit, whether or not she could have closed the 35s for the win - or conversely if she really wasn’t feeling it, whether she would have fallen off completely without the mild draft benefit. Its these types of questions that give our sport intrigue and depth.
@talbotcox noted above that we already have a version of triathlon that accounts for drafting, but this isn’t the same thing. There are similarly very few strategic decisions to be made in draft-legal triathlon as well - the answer is almost always to sit in the pack for most athletes. What we want is a sport where there’s a meaningful decision to be made - one that does exist at 12m that you wouldn’t necessarily find at 20m.
At 12m we do see those decisions being made - Laidlow burning off the front at Kona, LCB trying to stick with Knibb in both Kona and in Nice (edit: Marbella). Were these going to be too big an effort for her and she then blew up as a result? Who knows?!?! But at least its interesting.
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Thank you very much! Now what about my world’s slot and where do I sign up for another race?
By nice you mean Marbella I am pretty sure.
I would say Marbella and nice showed use what the race would be at 20 m vs 12. Due to all the climbing . And I think we all thought it was better racing.
Here is why 20 m is better today
Bike speed is higher.
Guys are teaming up on the bike. And at 12 that helps a lot .
Make good bikers go for it more often , they have a better chance .
Reason why not ….
Tradition, it’s the rule .
We get the riders closer off the bike.
Feel free to add pros and cons .
For me an always race the rules , no matter the rules.
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What’s the argument for tolerating only minimal drafting on the bike but encouraging it in the swim?
Or the run.
Don’t give us more problems give us solutions . What you got.
Mario cart it up on the bike. Every athlete gets 1 banana peel they can toss on the ground behind them. The person with the most time in lead at the mid point is awarded an extra banana peel at the final aid station.
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My solution? Personally, I’m not hugely concerned by the status quo. Seems a reasonable solution.
But if this is about fair racing, the percentage advantage of X metres compared with Y metres, big packs working together, or slower athletes being pulled along by faster ones… it feels like we could just as easily be describing the swim.